Isn't Crawford one of those guys that Kenny's in love with?

Plus he's black so Ozzie will actually play him*












*just kidding zielinski

Thats what I was thinking too...is Zobrist their leadoff guy?

They also said his "value over replacement" is number 4 or 5 in the MLB, whatever that means.

VORP, iirc, is basically just runs created (roughly, OPS) adjusted to account for what position you play.

Originally Posted by Quaye

Isn't Crawford one of those guys that Kenny's in love with?

Plus he's black so Ozzie will actually play him*












*just kidding zielinski

i was about to reply to this post, then i scrolled down a little more and saw you were kidding!

Originally Posted by zmz

i was about to reply to this post, then i scrolled down a little more and saw you were kidding!

Mega added 1 Minutes and 54 Seconds later...

Guess what...

Freddy Garcia stands a reasonable chance of securing the fifth spot in the White Sox's 2010 rotation if he pitches as well Wednesday night against Oakland as he has against American League powers New York and Boston.

"That's my first choice," manager Ozzie Guillen said Tuesday night.

Did we call this or what?

I don't get the Freddy hate. If he's a capable pitcher he's a capable pitcher, even topping out at 88 mph

From the comments:

With respect to Freddy if the Sox are banking their hopes on him for the 5th starter next season it'll be another repeat of Jose Contreras, Bartolo Colon, Danny Wright, Jon Rauch, Felix Diaz, Arnie Munoz and the countless others we've grown to know and love this decade.

Go out and get someone who's actually pitched more than 25 innings or so in the past two years.

Mark Liptak

HCfan (09/08/2009, 10:22 PM )

Lip

Mega added 0 Minutes and 36 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Quaye

I don't get the Freddy hate. If he's a capable pitcher he's a capable pitcher, even topping out at 88 mph

Why not use a young guy like Hudson to develop him?

Put Hudson in the pen to start him off in MLB. If Freddy or Carlos Torres fails, Hudson is right there. I know Guillen has made some terrible decisions over the years, but sometimes I think that has made us all a bit irrational to where any player with more than 3 years of MLB experience needs to be jettisoned ASAP.

I don't mind Freddy at the 5 spot. He's shown this year that he can still be a good pitcher, and if he does suck next year we've got Hudson in the pen.

I'm with Zmz.

Bringing up young guys and letting them develop in the pen is a good way to advance young pitchers. I wish we did it more often.

It's always a good thing to have more quality pitchers. And if Freddy's quality declines, then hopefully we'll get rid of him. But he's pitching well.

I don't think leftus will agree with us

My problem is not so much Garcia in the 5th spot, its how Ozzie would possibly handle the situation if it goes sour fast.

The "we don't have any other options" with Contreras came to mind. The guy had to be traded for him to stop getting starts.

fair enough. I'm not sure it would play out like that, but I guess we shall see

Originally Posted by Mega

My problem is not so much Garcia in the 5th spot, its how Ozzie would possibly handle the situation if it goes sour fast.

The "we don't have any other options" with Contreras came to mind. The guy had to be traded for him to stop getting starts.

It is always dicey giving Ozzie any chance to make the wrong decision, because he usually will do so. But I would take that risk for a chance that Garcia could be a solid MLB-proven 5th starter while Hudson gets a year of seasoning in the pen.

Originally Posted by Mega

B&B were saying yesterday that they had a "guy" with the Sox who knew that KW was going to throw the kitchen sink to get Figgins. And that with the emergence of Zobrist in Tampa, Crawford would be available given his pricetag and the fact that Tampa may not be able to afford him.

Total pipedream but....

LF-Crawford
3B-Figgins
SS-Beckham
1B-Konerko
DH-Dye/Thome/Some Douche
RF-TCQ
CF-Rios
2B-Ramirez
C-AJ/Flowers

Like I said, total pipedream, but very worthy.

Originally Posted by samram

I certainly don't have a problem with a 5th starter competition. Almost every team has one, usually with a vet and a prospect or two. Letting Hudson pitch out of the pen could be really good for him. On the other hand, maybe Freddy comes to camp 30 pounds overweight throwing 83 again.

Honestly, most teams don't have great 5th starters, so I'm for doing whatever develops Hudson best, whether that's bullpen or rotation.

For some reason the Sox can't survive without one.

And for another reason, the Sox can't consistently hit and win games without some kind of deadly speed at the top of the order.

Because he can't deliver the goods.

I think Hudson has gotten all the value he's going to get out of AAA already.

He should be on the team next year, and I'd pencil him in for the 5th starter. I know some teams like using the bullpen to develop pitchers, but I'm not a big fan of that. As long as you keep a guy like Hudson tied to a pitch count, there's no reason he can't start games for you.

You do need to make sure you have a long guy that can throw 3 or 4 innings when he pitches, though, so if you want Freddy Garcia around, that might be a way to use him, though I'd be just fine with Torres in the same spot.

Hudson can throw a buck sixty next year tops. KW has got to just get Garcia off the team.

Originally Posted by SABRSox

I think Hudson has gotten all the value he's going to get out of AAA already.

He should be on the team next year, and I'd pencil him in for the 5th starter. I know some teams like using the bullpen to develop pitchers, but I'm not a big fan of that. As long as you keep a guy like Hudson tied to a pitch count, there's no reason he can't start games for you.

You do need to make sure you have a long guy that can throw 3 or 4 innings when he pitches, though, so if you want Freddy Garcia around, that might be a way to use him, though I'd be just fine with Torres in the same spot.

I like giving guys that first year in the pen unless they are just absolutely inhumanly good prospects of the Tim Lincecum sort. Hudson from all I know of him isn't that sort of prospect. For all the talent there is, there is a very large mental adjustment in the jump from AAA to MLB, and I see no reason to push that move unless absolutely necessary. The year spent studying not only the hitters he will be facing for years to come, but learning from fellow starters, while not having the pressure of having to produce quality starts every 5 days for a team that will likely be competing for a division seems like a worthwhile investment. I mean, if Hudson is the fifth starter next year I don't think it will be the worst thing in the world, but I think the Sox are in a position where they don't have to rush him right into a high-pressure slot yet. Let him be the 2010 version of Brandon McCarthy, ready to step in the minute someone gets hurt or shitty, but otherwise let him learn the game at this level for a year, and pencil him for 2011.

As for Garcia, this is likely the first time he has been pitching healthy since 2006. I think it is not out of the realm of possibility that a healthy Garcia can give you a solid year. He has been quality his entire career until he hit a run of injuries. He has had good stuff when he has pitched (at least when I've watched) even if his fastball isn't in the 90's anymore. His breaking stuff has looked mostly sharp. I don't think it fair to pin it all on teams acting against him the way the Sox do when they face a rookie they've never seen.

I think the whole mental aspect is overblown. These guys aren't pussies. Throw them into the fire.

Of course you think the mental aspect is overblown, your name starts with SABR

I figure if it was good enough for Mark Buehrle and Johan Santana, it is good enough for Dan Hudson.

Originally Posted by spiffie

I like giving guys that first year in the pen unless they are just absolutely inhumanly good prospects of the Tim Lincecum sort. Hudson from all I know of him isn't that sort of prospect. For all the talent there is, there is a very large mental adjustment in the jump from AAA to MLB, and I see no reason to push that move unless absolutely necessary. The year spent studying not only the hitters he will be facing for years to come, but learning from fellow starters, while not having the pressure of having to produce quality starts every 5 days for a team that will likely be competing for a division seems like a worthwhile investment. I mean, if Hudson is the fifth starter next year I don't think it will be the worst thing in the world, but I think the Sox are in a position where they don't have to rush him right into a high-pressure slot yet. Let him be the 2010 version of Brandon McCarthy, ready to step in the minute someone gets hurt or shitty, but otherwise let him learn the game at this level for a year, and pencil him for 2011.

As for Garcia, this is likely the first time he has been pitching healthy since 2006. I think it is not out of the realm of possibility that a healthy Garcia can give you a solid year. He has been quality his entire career until he hit a run of injuries. He has had good stuff when he has pitched (at least when I've watched) even if his fastball isn't in the 90's anymore. His breaking stuff has looked mostly sharp. I don't think it fair to pin it all on teams acting against him the way the Sox do when they face a rookie they've never seen.

Why does it matter how talented Hudson is or Lincecum is? Again he's dominated pro ball since being drafted. He's earned a chance to step in and be the 5th starter. This part of the year, he's past his IP ceiling and probably shouldn't be slotted in for 4 or 5 starts, but I certainly think he should get 1 or 2, maybe with a 60 pitch limit. Simply because of the way he's pitched in pro ball, you gotta give him a shot and see if he's going to continue the way he's been.

Besides, the more you get his feet wet this year, the better chance he will be able to handle the 5th spot mentally and physically in 2010. I'd really like to see him get his first start in a lost season, e.g. this one, not in 2010 when we should have much higher expectations.

I think a September in the bullpen in long enough in the bullpen for him. I think it's crazy to put a guy in there for a year.

I don't know that I'd call what he's done "dominated" really. He has been very good. But he also hasn't pitched more than 56 innings at any level. I'm not sure you can dominate a level when you have 5 appearances there, as Hudson had at AAA. Hell, while there he only went past 5 innings one time. And he got hit around pretty well in 2 of those 5 starts. I'm not saying that is bad, but people keep saying he "dominated every level" and really, the only places he was truly dominant were Kanappolis and Birmingham. He was above average in Great Falls, Winston-Salem, and Charlotte. But not nearly so good that to me you automatically pencil him in as the #5 guy.

Just based on minor league stats you could say Carlos Torres is just as deserving of the fifth spot considering he has put up awesome numbers in Charlotte all year, all while pitching in a hitter's park there. Why isn't he given this same sort of consideration to be put right into that position?

Because Torres is 26 maybe? He's become a good four A player. It's not too uncommon for a guy like him to have a lot of success at AAA with all his experience. Hudson also has clearly superior stuff.

Originally Posted by Lefty34

Because then people fire back with "Not with how LAST night went heh heh heh" and that's just a pain in the ass to deal with.

I will give you that anyone using that logic should probably be beaten about the head and neck region.